Men, have a seat. We need to talk.
We need to talk.
Let me start by reminding you that I am a daughter of
God.
And just like fathers are often protective of their
daughters, particularly when it comes to dating, God wants to protect me from
men that may potentially treat me poorly.
"I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people...shall come up unto me against the men of my people." (Jacob 2:32)
God will not tolerate the men of His church treating His daughters with less respect than He expects. Especially when that lack of respect comes from the young men that hold His priesthood, and that preach of their personal devotion to His church.
Men, if you don’t treat women with the respect that God expects, you aren’t as righteous as you feign.
God will not tolerate the men of His church treating His daughters with less respect than He expects. Especially when that lack of respect comes from the young men that hold His priesthood, and that preach of their personal devotion to His church.
Men, if you don’t treat women with the respect that God expects, you aren’t as righteous as you feign.
And I’m tired of being treated with less respect than I
deserve.
Until a few years ago, I had never identified with the
feminist agenda. Being a woman in today’s world had never seemed unfair to me. I had never experienced the kind of
misogynistic mistreatment that feminism assures the world is still a problem.
And then I moved to Provo.
Quit Objectifying
I had never felt objectified as a woman until I started dating the men that I met at BYU.
That breaks my heart. A lot of these men are
returned missionaries. They hold God’s priesthood. They’ve covenanted with God
in His temple. These men are supposed to be an example to the world on how
to treat women.
And they didn't set an example to follow.
Although I first experienced this as a college
student, I have since met so many men who aren't treating women the way they deserve.
The pattern is always the same: he acts interested in her, he
manipulates her with flattery until he gets what he wants (which is always physical), and then he
disappears.
Over, and over, and over again.
Do you know how that makes a woman feel? Like an object.
It makes us feel like our contribution to dating is our body,
which exists solely to satisfy the lust of the men we date. It makes us feel used. It makes us feel like
our individuality is unimportant, when the people we date should love us because of it and protect it fiercely. Instead, these men manipulate our desires, passions, intellect, fears, and emotions until we're vulnerable enough that we'll let them be physically close to us. Overwhelmingly often, without offering the same emotional vulnerability in return.
It's debilitating.
I am not a means to an end. I am an individual--a daughter of the living God--and I deserve to be respected. Most especially by God’s
covenant sons.
Identify (& Respect) Her Boundaries
Elder Holland says everything that I could possibly hope to convey about this so acutely.
To say that a young woman in such a relationship has to bear her responsibility and that of the young man's too is the least fair assertion I can imagine. In most instances if there is sexual transgression, I lay the burden squarely on the shoulders of the young man--for our purposes probably a priesthood bearer--and that's where I believe God intended responsibility to be. In saying that I do not excuse young women who exercise no restraint and have not the character or conviction to demand intimacy only in its rightful role. I have had enough experience in Church callings to know that women as well as men can be predatory. But I refuse to buy some young man's feigned innocence who wants to sin and call it psychology.
Indeed, most tragically, it is the young woman who is most often the victim, it is the young woman who most often suffers the greater pain, it is the young woman who most often feels used and abused and terribly unclean. And for that imposed uncleanliness a man will pay, as surely as the sun sets and rivers run to the sea.” (Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments)
I know Elder Holland is speaking specifically of sexual transgression here, but the same principle holds true for any situation in which a woman feels physically or emotionally exploited in a dating relationship. And that place is different for every woman.
Do you know where that place is for the woman you're dating? Is she uncomfortable kissing you? Holding your hand? Making
out? Cuddling? Does it even matter to you?
Men, if you want to kiss a woman but you haven't the
slightest idea where her physical and emotional comfort level is, you have no business touching her in even the most chaste of ways.
“Men, take care not to make women weep,” cautioned President Monson, “for
God counts their tears.”
Consider your
motive for kissing her. Is it because she's attractive? Because
you’re lonely? Because you’re emotional? Or does it stem
from a deep-rooted, genuine desire to express your heartfelt adoration for her,
and you don’t feel like you can adequately express your feelings in any other way?
Because if you try to kiss her and she's not 100% comfortable with it, she may still let you do it.
“Think about
how many times a kiss has been interpreted as an invitation to things it was
never meant to be. Let her guide you instead of
assuming that you intimately know a map you’ve never seen before.”
(Thought Catalog)
Will a kiss on the forehead express the sentiment you wish to get across to her? What about a kiss on the cheek? The back of her hand? If only a kiss to her lips will suffice, can you kiss
her without making out with her? Do you even want to? This kind of self-reflection will provide a framework about your motives for getting physical.
Try Harder to Be Better
I recognize that I’m generalizing a bit here, and that there are plenty of genuine young men
that don’t fall in this category. And I am, by no means, excusing women to behave however they want in their dating relationships - women are undeniably expected to treat the men they date with respect and decency.
But men, you have a responsibility in dating and courtship, especially as a priesthood-bearer, to treat women with respect. And you are expected to live up to that standard.
But men, you have a responsibility in dating and courtship, especially as a priesthood-bearer, to treat women with respect. And you are expected to live up to that standard.
"No man, young or old, who holds the priesthood of God
can honor that priesthood without honoring and respecting womanhood. Any young
man should be prepared to protect a woman’s virtue with his life, if necessary,
and never be guilty of lusting after a woman or doing anything that would
degrade her or cause her to lose her virtue. Every young woman has a perfect
right to feel safe in going out with a young man holding the priesthood,
knowing that he will respect and protect her in every way." (Priesthood Responsibility)
With your life, if necessary.
That is your responsibility as a man of God.
"It grieveth me," said the prophet Jacob to the Nephites in the Book of Mormon, "that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God... [But] ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds." (Jacob 2:7, 35)
You have broken our hearts. Over. And over. And over again. And we're tired of it.
But we understand that's the risk that we take when we date. And we're not going to stop trying to make this work. We're going to keep putting ourselves "out there," with the full knowledge and understanding that we might get hurt again. And again. And again. Because most of us really do want to be a wife and a mother. We accept that role as our divine potential and calling here in our mortal existence, and our contribution to the eternal Plan of Salvation. And most of us embrace that responsibility with open arms.
But that doesn't mean that we need to fulfill that responsibility at the expense of the respect that we have for ourselves, the respect that God has for us, and the respect that God expects His sons to show toward us.
"It grieveth me," said the prophet Jacob to the Nephites in the Book of Mormon, "that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God... [But] ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds." (Jacob 2:7, 35)
You have broken our hearts. Over. And over. And over again. And we're tired of it.
But we understand that's the risk that we take when we date. And we're not going to stop trying to make this work. We're going to keep putting ourselves "out there," with the full knowledge and understanding that we might get hurt again. And again. And again. Because most of us really do want to be a wife and a mother. We accept that role as our divine potential and calling here in our mortal existence, and our contribution to the eternal Plan of Salvation. And most of us embrace that responsibility with open arms.
But that doesn't mean that we need to fulfill that responsibility at the expense of the respect that we have for ourselves, the respect that God has for us, and the respect that God expects His sons to show toward us.
President Hinckley once gave some beautiful advice
To the Women of the Church. His
expectation beautifully echoes God’s, and is the blueprint that so many of the
women in the church use when looking for men to date and eventually marry.
This is all we really want:
What really matters is that he will love you, that he will respect you, that he will honor you, that he will be absolutely true to you, that he will give you freedom of expression and let you fly in the development of your own talents. He is not going to be perfect, but if he is kind and thoughtful, if he knows how to work and earn a living, if he is honest and full of faith, the chances are that you will not go wrong, that you will be immensely happy.
*Update*
Thank you so much for reading
my blog post, you guys. It has received significantly more attention than I was
anticipating, but I'm glad that it did. This is such an important topic, and
one that I've been wanting to address for a long time.
The response to this post has
been overwhelmingly positive…except for when it hasn’t. Which is definitely to
be expected when posting something as bold as this. When I originally published
the article and I started getting some negative feedback, I revisited the post
with the intent to update or even delete it altogether. After reading through
it again, however, I felt very confident that the post said exactly what I
wanted to say in exactly the way I wanted to say it.
That said, I do want address the 5 most recurring pieces of feedback that this post has received.
I am not a feminist, and this is not a feminist post.
It’s quite the opposite, actually. It’s asking men to take more responsibility over how women are treated--not less.
This post isn't addressing my “dating preferences."
This is the standard that God has set for the men of His church that hold His priesthood (and ideally, the treatment of all men toward all women). I didn’t set the expectation; I’m just reiterating God’s standard and echoing the expectation.
I’m not excusing women to behave however they want in dating relationships.
Women have every responsibility to be respectful to the men that they date as the men do toward women; but that wasn’t the intent of this post. The intent was to reiterate that in order for men to honor their priesthood, they must treat womanhood with the respect that God expects.
I’m not addressing a “culture” issue with this post.
I’m addressing a doctrinal standard set by God regarding the treatment of women. I agree that the Utah/Provo culture plays into why this happens, but that doesn’t excuse the behavior. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, regardless of external influences. (Which also goes back to the fact that women, regardless of how they are treated, must respond with respect and decency -- because we aren’t helpless victims to the behavior of men. But we should be holding men to the standard of respect that God has set for the treatment of women.)
This is a big deal.
This post has received a lot of feedback like, “This isn’t as big of a deal as you’re making it,” and “There’s nothing wrong with kissing or holding hands.” This is a big deal. And attitudes like this are exactly the problem that I’m addressing with this post. I would be willing to bet that most people don’t know what guidance the church has established for physicality in dating relationships before marriage, and I would be willing to bet that most people would be very surprised at how chaste it is. I don’t personally know anyone that has kept to the church’s standard of physicality in dating relationships. I won't go into all of that now, but at least take a look at what President Spencer W. Kimball had to say about it:
“Kissing has been prostituted
and has degenerated to develop and express lust instead of affection, honor,
and admiration. To kiss in casual dating is asking for trouble. What do kisses
mean when given out like pretzels and robbed of sacredness? Even if timely
courtship justifies the kiss, it should be a clean, decent, sexless one like
the kiss between mother and son, or father and daughter.” (Source)
You guys, this is so important. Thanks again, so much,
for helping me encourage each of us to be our best selves, for encouraging each
other to reflect on the way that we’re treating others, and to each “try a
little harder to be a little better.”
WOW. Love this.
ReplyDeleteI just read your very long article on how aggrieved you feel about the testoserone filled behavior of men in their early 20's and their behavior around women of the same age who maybe there thinking that because this is the church and that these men went on missions its all going to be fantastic? Well, I would say in some ways you are a victim of your own thinking. You are on a university campus, the main thrill of that apart from learning is the opposite sex, dating, marraige etc? You put these guys on a pedestal, they are young guys full of testesorone who havent tasted hardship, have probably never lived with sincere heart ache. They are you inexperienced guys you and the church put on a pedestal becsuse they are rm's or whatever and they are saying thanks 'I will have some of that'.Your stupidity is part of the problem? Of course they should know better, but they havent lived and maybe neither have you? Dont date idiots. Use your brain like the brother of Jared was told to. Why not consider a man who never went on a mission? He no doubt will have been shunned by some of you fine upstanding daughters of God because he never served, but in him, you might find the gold you are looking for? I blame they guys just like you do, but I blame the church for an unchristian caste system that elevates them as rms and I think if any of you women have a 'date only rm attitude' by hurting the none rm, maybe you in effect get hurt back? Eitherway, it sounds like you are being lazy and seem to think you have a right to expect all would be suiters at BYU to be exemplary examples of priesthood holders when surrounded by campus 'go get the chicks' mentality. The guys are dushonouring their priesthood, but it sounds like you are dishonouring your agency by being mentally numb enough to walk right into it?
DeleteApologise about some serious typos in there, I also don't want to be too hard on you, but having lived a bit longer than you. I feel to warn you as my dad warned me once. 'You need to be thick skinned to be a mormon'. He was right, the savior allowed Judas to be not just amongst, but actually one of his apostles, don't you think the church has its fair share of jerks? Of that you can be sure. Your biggest worry should not be them, but your own level of expectation. Be careful, people are malicious and selfish in church too, only in different ways sometimes, I am trully sorry to say. There are of course some great great people,but they are not universal.
DeleteBrian Deane. Your writing suggests to me that you feel the woman is at fault for not knowing a rm's full lifes history, IQ and self gratifying proclivities. Perhaps we should politely request this information from potential suitors before accepting any invitations for a first date? Or should a woman first assess whether she's experienced enough to handle such a testosterone fuelled world before accepting any invitation at all?
DeletePlease forgive my sarcasm but I feel the diatribe you eloquently typed begged this response. You see the problem is not man vs woman Brian Deane. The problem is manners and upbringing: the appropriate way to address and consider fellow human beings. I have a high powered job dealing with Lloyds of London syndicates; an environment where just 1 in every 30 underwriters or brokers who walk through those hallowed doors is a female. Often I marvel at the tantrums thrown by grown men who clearly were pandered to as a child, then released upon an unwitting population. They are the true dregs of society and bullies in the purest form. And bullies always use and abuse those they perceive to be weaker than themselves, which often translates to women.
I am resigned to the fact that this is the society in which I have been forced to deal with. I am not however forgiving of those who were raised in the teachings of the Gospel. For THEY should know better. They are to be held to a higher standard as they were raised with a truth that translates simply to love and respect for one another. On this account, the mothers and fathers of these grown bullies have fallen short and are found drastically wanting.
Brian Deane. I have 2 sons. They are 15 and 11 years of age. My husband is not a member and is baptised Church of England. Regardless of this, my sons were raised in the church and the older has the priesthood. They know that women are equal. Regardless of the fact that I am paid the same as my husband and have a higher education or that I have an equal share in providing their education, sustenance and general quality of life, I drilled into them the teachings of the gospel. They are raised to treat all genders, races, religions and orientations equally: with respect and kindness. And if they ever fall short of this, there is an almighty reckoning waiting when I see them again that I'm sure they would bargain with the devil himself to escape my wrath. And, most importantly, they would be disappointed in themselves.
Please do not make excuses, pass blame or deflect on behalf of your brethren, Brian Deane. This blog spoke a pure truth. Learn from it and ensure that, when the time is upon you, you do not release dregs of society or bullies upon the unwitting population.
Kalani Settle, yes!!!! I couldn't have said it better myself!
DeleteBravo Kalani! I'm a mother of boys and feel the same. Hell hath no fury like their mother if they ever think to disrespect or pressure a young woman. And it's MY responsibility to teach them how to date respectfully.
DeleteThank you Kalani Settle, that was very well said! I am a single mother of two sons (who are now married). When they were attending college, they absolutely knew how to behave, and how to treat women. They honored their priesthood, and absolutely were in control of themselves. It was taught to them when they were young, and in their 20's they unequivocally KNEW what was right and wrong. Sorry, Brian Deane.... you can't make excuses for young men. Not having "lived" or not having "experience" does not justify inadequate behavior.
DeleteBrian you missed the entire point of the article. Did you not read Elder Holland's thought on "testosterone filled minds?"
DeleteBrian Deane, as one who has been one of those young men full of testosterone and as one who has had two sons go through that testosterone period, I can tell you that testosterone does not need to control your life. This blog is right on point. Men, even young men full of testosterone, do need to treat women with respect. They do not need to be controlled by their testosterone. Anybody who cannot see how this is possible is caught in the midst of looking through the distorted lens Satan has prepared to wreck havoc in the lives of man.
DeleteI sense from the things you said and how you said them that you are "murmur[ing], saying it is a hard thing which [is] required of [young men]" (1 Nephi 3:5). I do not wish to imply where you are personally at in your righteousness, but I feel compelled to point out the parallel's between your reaction and the reactions of Laman and Lemuel. Have you inquired of the Lord if the things said in this blog are true? I tell you they are true. Too many of the young (and old, for that matter) in the church are having their understandings distorted and are being led away by that cunning one.
Great post. I do however have a problem with addressing all of men at BYU in Provo. Not all men are that way. Just because they live in Provo or go to BYU doesn't mean that they are all the same.
DeleteHello Jessica, I just wanted to respond and give you some of my thoughts. As a gay man and member of the church, I have little interest in dating, so perhaps I don't have the best view on the topic you're discussing. Plus I live in West Jordan (though I do work in downtown Provo). I think it can be a bit dangerous and unhelpful to write when feeling intense emotions. I find it best to take some time to breathe before writing if I'm feeling angry, stressed, or frustrated.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, there were a few things I wanted to point out. First, let me validate some of the things you've said. There are people in any group you want to pull from who may mistreat those around them. I don't want to discount that. And if you have been mistreated by others before, I apologize. I know what it's like to be disrespected, used, and discarded. And I am sorry that you've dealt with that.
On the other hand, I don't think it's fair to make such broad generalizations. You even mentioned that in your post. But I think real racism, sexism, or any of the "phobias" presents itself when people generalize and make blanket negative statements about a group of people.
The place that I work at in Provo gets a large number of dates, many of whom are BYU students. The place I work is very interactive, meaning I'm engaged in conversations or activities with customers most of the time. I can honestly say that I have seen very little disrespect expressed between couples that come in. I won't say I've never seen it. I mean, I've had customers sit on each other's laps or make out in ways that made me and customers uncomfortable. But it's definitely the minority that do that. I will also point out that the disrespect I have seen doesn't seem to be exclusive to either gender. I've seen men be rude to women, and women be rude to men.
Really, I think some of the issues that you bring up come from LDS culture in general. And you did bring that up, but I'm talking about it in a different way. What I mean is that I believe that men and women need healthy connections with those around them (and yes, that includes physical connection). Being a gay man, and faithful member of the church, I feel like I have a unique perspective on this. I really do believe that men need other men. Not sexually, but physically and emotionally. I also believe that women need other women. But if you look at the disconnect in culture, perhaps you can begin to see an issue. In my experience, women can hug,cuddle with, hold hands with, and have deep emotional relationships with their other female friends without much threat of being called lesbian, or looked down on or threatened. I'm not saying it never happens. But that it has been rare in my observations. I feel that men on the other hand can't easily hug, cuddle with, hold hands with, or have deep emotional relationships with other men without the cultural assumption that they are gay, or having sex together. Again, bit in every case, but I see it happen commonly. Back in high school, I had some friendships with men I was trying to develop. I grew to really care about them, and wanted to express it by hugging them. But they rejected me when I asked saying it was "gay" and that they didn't hug other guys. I had a very small number of male friends that did hug me, but if it was in public, we would sometimes be made fun of and called gay or even threatened physically. Yes, I eventually came out as gay. But I knew guys who hugged other guys who are straight.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteThe reason I bring this up is that I really think the roots of the problem you're talking about don't just happen because someone happens to be male. I really believe in many cases that it is influenced by culture. Every human being needs connection to be healthy, but being male in Utah culture can mean that investing time and energy into connection with other men can result in being shunned, or assumed to be gay. And so I think that men desperately need connection, but culturally are told the only way they can get it is with women. And that's unhealthy to get it from one gender only. Even I, as a gay man, need connection from both men and women. I think one of the first steps to helping men better connect and better respect women would be to improve culture so that people can actually live healthy lives. Encourage men to hug, don't call them gay. Encourage them to have male friends, don't get upset if they want to have a guys night.
I think both genders have work to do when it comes to respecting each other. The LDS culture needs to stop with making lists of the qualities that they "need" in a spouse. I fully recognize this doesn't apply to all women, but I have literally had LDS women say, to my face, that they would never date or marry me because I'm gay. The same thing has been said because I haven't served a mission. I've heard men say that they "need" their wife to be beautiful. In some cases, I've even heard men use that as a way to attempt to motivate others to fulfill church responsibilities (for example, I've heard men say "if you do your home teaching, you'll have a more beautiful spouse".)
Again, I don't want to discount what you've said. I recognize that it can happen. But can't we all just admit that we are imperfect? Jesus Christ didn't just spend time with the righteous, but also with the sinners, the sick, the afflicted. He even spent time to teach the scribes and pharisees, and had mercy on the very men who crucified Him. I hope the LDS culture will eventually get to the point where people aren't labeled. Where we don't look at someone as a sex offender, an addict, a murder, a bishop, a returned missionary or one who never went, etc. Hopefully one day we can look around and think of everyone first and foremost as a child of God.
Dang dude! Where can I read your blog posts?
DeleteThese are great thoughts. It makes very good sense.
DeleteDang bro! You made some very excellent points. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It made more sense of the article for me. At first it seemed a bit sexist towards men and like it generalized a little too much but the way you explained it made more sense delivered the message in a less biased way. Thank you again
DeleteJessica,
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to take a moment to apologize for what you and so many other women of the church have suffered through. No women should ever have to feel demeaned or objectified in any way, let alone to the lengths you described. The fact that these words and actions come from individuals who have spent hours hearing Prophets, leaders, and the Lord teach how to realize and respect the divine nature of all women makes this even more disheartening. On behalf of my entire gender, I apologize... You deserve better. The women of the Church deserve better. The women of the world deserve better... I'm sorry.
Great post!! This has very much been my experience. And while I agree with Mitchell that our society and culture has played a big part in conditioning men to objectify women, and to not express their emotions or connect with and need others, it's just an excuse. If a man sees a woman as an object, he is responsible for that, and he is responsible for changing the way he sees and treats women, REGARDLESS of how the rest of the world, or the rest on the priesthood holders at church, see and treat women.
ReplyDeleteJessica, you are right, we should NEVER sacrifice the respect we have for ourselves and for God, for the sake of getting married or staying married.
I agree that I want to be treated with respect, but I do not agree with shaming people for being human. Sometimes, as humans, we treat each other poorly. I have done this to my family, friends, strangers, authority figures. Sometimes respect isn't given when it should, it's human. I hate lines like "Men, if you don’t treat women with the respect that God expects, you aren’t as righteous as you feign to be." which first of all, eliminates the copious amount of women who disrespect each other, and also makes the author of this the judge of character. We need to respond to disrespect with love and nurturing. Hopefully that individual will see their error and repent, but we are not the judge, jury and executioner of men.
ReplyDeleteAs far as how men treat women while dating, the same can be said of how women treat men. My husband has a laundry list of girls using him, emotionally manipulating him, and lying to him. You won't find a single one of these guys who treats a girl badly that hasn't had the same problem. But what is worse? Often the perpetrator of such hurtful behavior is oblivious. I know I was. I recall recounting a short-lived month long relationship to my husband where he said "wow, you were kind of a dick" in response. I love how candid and honest he always is with me. After talking it out I realized that what I did was WRONG. I thought I was doing something normal and taking the less hurtful way out, but that was not the case. Also ghosting a prospective date? I did that too. And I also dated a guy for about 3 weeks until we ended up making out, he was HORRIBLE at it, and I became uninterested after realizing we were physically incompatible. Is there anything wrong with that? No. But I did end it. Was I using him for physical reasons? No, but I have every right to end a relationship at any time for any reason. I also recall a two month relationship that caused me to feel a pretty used. My husband also pointed out the irony in that the guy had just as much right as I did to end it (as well as point out how he never told me he loved me or any other mile stone except continuing to spend time with me)
ReplyDeleteJust like a nice date doesn't entitle you to sex, it also doesn't entitle you to another date or a relationship. Dating is a means to help you find a forever partner. There is no point during dating when it is wrong for a guy or girl to decide they aren't interested and end it. Even after sex. We are adults for crying out loud! I am understanding that a man forcing himself on a woman is wrong, but a make out session on his couch while watching Captain America is a choice. UNLESS a guy forces himself on you, if you do not ask him to stop or pull away or tell him where your line is he probably won't. And same goes for girls. Girls go in for the kiss too! If you want him to ask permission tell him. Be an adult! Don't expect everyone to ask you for a laundry list of your boundaries, allergies and quirks on the first date.
This girl has clearly had some shitty experiences, but dating sucks. That's a part of life. It's a bunch of incompatible people trying to see if they fit with one another. At BYU a majority of these people are kind of immature, often sheltered and at an age where they are commonly selfish. It's just a part of life.
Thank you for at least acknowledging that women mistreat men too. I am at BYU right now and I must say that I feel like some of the girls have this entitled attitude which makes them feel like they have more room to mistreat men and get away with it. I hate it.
DeleteWait so you are complaining because you can't find a boyfriend and the problem isn't you, but because boys want to kiss you instead of getting to know you.... I hope you realize how dumb this sounds on face value. ALSO, YOU SHOULD CHECK OUT LOUIS C.K. You for sure seem like someone who would like his stand-up.
ReplyDeleteI hope the next time a short, skinny, nerdy, shy guy works up the nerve to ask you out, you say yes. And I hope it's not just a sympathy date, but that you go into it recognizing that maybe this guy will treat you with the respect you deserve. I once heard a girl at BYU complain that guys didn't ask her out, and in the next breath complain that ugly guys keep asking her out. I hope you don't judge men on their bodies, as you don't want to bu judged on yours.
ReplyDeleteAnd I hope that lonely nerdy guy isn't only asking out beauty queens.
DeleteI loved this article and I was really shocked by negative and defensive comments. I am a Mental health counselor and I work almost exclusively with LDS women. Most of the time these women are now 10 or 15 years into their marriage. They are in counseling by and large because they are experiencing the same disrespect in their marriage that they experienced in their dating life. If folks disagree with some parts of how are you presented your thoughts that's their prerogative but your overall sentiment is spot-on. To say that this happens because of testosterone or youth or asserting that women are the problem too or dissecting who women choose to date are all symptoms of the problem you're discussing.
ReplyDeleteI can't speak for anyone else, but my comment was meant to be taken at face value. I don't know the author, and maybe she does give stereotypically unattractive guys a chance. I am not saying there's not a problem, and there are plenty of guys who need to shape up. Shortly after my mission, I got together with some friends from Freshman year and was disgusted with how some (not all) of them talked about girls. The problem is real and it needs to be addressed, I just hope girls will not limit themselves to the "good-looking" guys while expressing the desire not to be objectified. That exacerbates the problem, and potentially cuts off the possibility of meeting some guys who DO treat women with respect. I am NOT saying all good-looking guys are jerks or that all shy guys are really nice, I am saying "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." If you don't want to feel objectified, don't objectify. Maybe the author already does that, and if so, I applaud her. If not, I hope she'll start. She can invite guys to be better, but ultimately all she can control is what she does, and leading by example is a great way to help change occur. That was my point.
DeleteIn my experience it has been quite the opposite experience. My son has lived at BYU for 2 years now and has been very kind and respectful to all of the women he encounters. He has attempted to ask out quite a few of them and is quickly placed in the "friend" zone. Comments like oh you are a great guy but you're not my type are heard far too frequently by him. Don't for a single minute believe that the women are these saints that this blogger makes them out to be. There are plenty of really respectful, faithful, loving, kind,chivalrous young men who want to be given a chance but because they don't fit the mold they are rejected. My son and his roommates are referred affectionately to as the Big Bang Theory apartment. They are kind of nerdy and they like super heroes but they are genuine and hard working but are placed in a category and stereotyped and not given a chance. if you go into a bar looking for a drunk you will probably find one. Look in the right places and you will find what you are looking for. Take off your blinders and look at the whole of the being and you will see a magnificent young man made in the image of his Father in Heaven who honors his priesthood.
ReplyDeleteAgree^
DeleteSo...I think what you're really addressing is how the dating culture at BYU has shifted from the place you go to find a spouse to the place you go to "date" as many hotties as you can before you finally succumb to marriage. I've seen it. I have friends in Provo who've dated around for years...like 10 years...and are still not married. The non-committal make-out sessions (who the guys know all along are non-committal, but the girls don't necessarily) tide their urges over just enough I guess that they can go on like that indefinitely. Plus, they aren't breaking the law of chastity, so they feel they're in good standing. But a lecture to these men will never change them (especially one this long and vague). The only person you can control is yourself. I suggest either only dating young men who are ready to get married, or calling it what it is from the beginning if you aren't. Say, "I'm not sure I am ready to get married, and you're not sure either, so lets enjoy each other's company." Notice I didn't add "And see if we change our minds." In my experience, girls will change their minds, and guys won't. It's better to ask yourself if you're ready to get married. If you are, and a guy shows interest, make sure he knows you're not interested in hanging out, or making out, unless you're exclusively dating. Not by straight out telling him, but by setting some standards. Don't be part of social groups that are dead ends. Don't hang out with a guy all night and call it a date. If women subtly raise the bar, men will step up eventually. But more immediately, you'll find out which guys in Provo are about casual physical relationships and which ones are about marriage.
ReplyDeleteNice thoughts, this is good dating advice for everybody! I think, however, that actually straight up telling the guy those things would be VERY helpful, in addition to showing him by your actions like you described. Speaking for myself here, I totally miss signals. If you want to *make sure* I know something, please just tell me! When a girl acts a certain way to try to convey something, it's hard to know if you're understanding her signals the way she intends, assuming you notice in the first place.
DeleteI think this is the case for many men. We're not dumb, we just communicate differently.
Rather than posting this long diatribe, you could have posted this Yeezy song that essentially says what you're saying. It would have saved people some time and been much more enjoyable.
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/oFgXiV7XYVE
Just defending the men a bit here who DON'T act this way, I live in Provo, and am currently engaged, i know many many many young men in Provo who treat woman respectfully and righteously. I also know many many many young men who do not. In my experience, the men who do not, are often easy to spot, so forgive me for saying that I completely agree with you, that men should NEVER treat women that way, and also that women should never treat men that way, but that if a guy wants a good girl, and a girl wants a good guy, they've BOTH GOT to keep a solid head on their shoulders, and realize that when a guy is an idiot, he's an idiot. And you should stay away from him, NO MATTER how big his arms are, or flashy his eyes are, because I promise you, there will always be a guy who's heart is easily more attractive than any of those attributes. Same goes for guys to girls, because I have met plenty of girls who post pictures of the temple, who talk about Christ all day long, then the minute you get closer, they start wearing skimpy clothes and going for the kisses. So sorry, but it does happen. Just keep your eyes open, your head on straight, and the Savior in your heart, and you can't go wrong.
ReplyDeleteKeep your eyes open your head on straight, and the savior in your heart? I went to BYU, did all of those things and a boy I had met once pushed me up against a wall and stuck his hand up my vagina. These things happen at BYU when girls aren't asking for it and when they are doing the right thing. Your comment is so incredibly ignorant.
DeleteIt's really enlightening to read through all of this and gain a better perspective for who we are and what we are all going through and to realize that none of us are going through this alone. We may all have different experiences and things that we have learned from them, but this human experience that we are all going through and learning how to manage our feeling and expressing them in proper ways, but we all struggle with controlling our bodies at some point in our life, whether it's physical, emotional, mental, whatever it is. We have all been given a set of challenges to overcome, however they come to us. The greatest amount of change we will ever see will be in our own lives as we come to learn and accept who we are and what we are capable of becoming. If you want to be happy, be happy. If you want to be confident, stand for something, anything, and then look to the Lord for guidance. It's not easy by any means in today's society to do that, but it's worth it.
ReplyDeleteWhen you learn to be patient, understanding, forgiving, respectful,and kind to yourself, while remaining ambitious and hard working, it becomes so much easier to do that to others.
Here is where I get frustrated about these feminists stances. Women cry for equality and then point out all these ways that women are more special or more favored than men, or should have special treatment. (In this article in particular it was hinted that God loves his girls more and that men are monsters) I can tell you that there are women that prowl just as bad as men do, especially young people. I feel like you had a few bad experiences and maybe you should confront these men rather than deem a whole gender as ugly. Its a human thing to be attracted to people. We have that physical attraction because we need to pro-create and yes we should keep it under control, but in today's culture, men are told (by women) that to be liked by a woman they need to take charge and have their minds made up because that is attractive to woman. So they show that by grabing your hand or giving you a hug or even going in for a kiss when they feel that is right, and trust me, no one likes rejection, doing any of these things can be scary. I think you are making a big deal out of something that isn't. BYU seems to be a place for people to date, even speed date and find out what personalities they like or dont. If you have been dumped a few times they did you a favor, they left you to your own device rather than mislead you for who know how many years of marriage. I don't think you should be speaking for all women in your courtship preferences. If you don't want to be touched or complemented or whatever its YOUR responsibility to tell the person you are dating you don't want any of those things, because I hate to break it to you, there is nothing wrong with kissing or holding hands.
ReplyDeleteRock solid stance, absolutely irrefutable.
ReplyDeleteIn a bit of role reversal, I was on the receiving end of an objectifying young woman. Granted, I didn't go to BYU. This was Snow. But that is a whole other blog post...
I love this. I had never felt like I needed to be a "feminist" until I went to BYU as well. I was molested at BYU and every single boy I dated wanted to make out, feel me up and then leave. I love that you've brought this to attention because I felt like it was ironic as well. Thats why I transferred from BYU. Thank you for writing this.
ReplyDeleteA couple of things here:
ReplyDeleteYou're generalizing men pretty intensely, making addresses to all men in this way isn't very useful. What you're talking about is almost entirely a cultural problem. You're looking for driven BYU men, who are infallible, egotistical, and ambitious - then surprised that they're treating you like status symbols or looking to fight boundaries. What else are they supposed to do? They can't have sex with you - or have sex at all, they're told not to masturbate - so their hormonal levels are through the roof. As someone who was raised in Utah County, I can attest to the insanity of social pressures - you're expected to find a beautiful girl, have a lot of kids, and make a lot of money. And you're surprised when women are being objectified? What else are they supposed to do? Men's needs are not being met by premarital Mormon relationships. If that is not evident to you, I don't know how else to convince you.
When you say "Because if you try to kiss her and she's not 100% comfortable with it, she may still let you do it." I hope you realize the double standard you're creating here. In the previous paragraph you posted a quote from Holland about how it is men's responsibility to take control of his actions. Yet somehow "letting someone kiss you" is different?
As a medical professional, I'd like to point out that no one of either gender "needs" to have sexual gratification. It is a drive, but life can be sustained while still abstaining by completely. We also have drives to eat doughnuts and chips, but they are not needs.
DeleteAt the crux of the issue seems to be normativism/positivism. You want a world in which men with the priesthood treat women with the respect they deserve. That's a world I want as well. Furthermore, I want a world in which all men treat women with the respect they deserve. I also want a world where women treat men with the respect they deserve. (As an aside, I'm really uncomfortable with the implication that men are more culpable than women for the problems in Mormon dating culture. Both sides are culpable. Not sure if the culpability is equal, but it's closer to equal than you think, IMHO.)
ReplyDeleteYou simultaneously make a positive argument that men with the priesthood don't always treat women well. This is obviously true. Given human nature, however, I don't think it's fair to hold men with the priesthood to a higher standard than those who don't have it. Many men without it are very good men while many men with it are morally bankrupt. That said, I'd be interested to see data analyzing whether women in relationships with priesthood holders differ from those who are in relationships with nonpriesthood holders in terms of relationship satisfaction and other notable measures. Respectfully, until that data comes out, I think that your argument is purely speculative.
Basically, we should all try to be better to each other. And one side shouldn't be held to an artificially high standard due to holding the priesthood.
I have a huge problem with articles like this. You probably don't realize it but this kind of mentality is exactly what creates the very problem you are trying to stop. The problem is not each and every individual man in Provo. Blaming each man is kind of like blaming each person in a village of small pox for getting sick. What do they all share in common, because don't you think that's the problem? Do you think they each decided to treat women like this? As if it was a giant conspiracy that they all bought into once they moved to Provo? The problem is the culture. Where does the culture come from? Mentalities like this. Consider my perspective 'the other side'... I hope you find it valuable. I myself just a few weeks ago was accused of this kind of behavior with a girl. She lambasted me in a text message for not calling her after we had kissed...she later apologized for the message and actually commended me for how I handled it. There were very good reasons I didn't call her afterwards and she came to admit to it herself. (Yet I still had to endure the tongue lashing before she got to that point). Do you think I'm going to just cozy right up to her and take her out again? Uhhh no. One thing she actually told me in the message was to 'recognize that I alone, am not that great'. Alone I am not that great? Is this how you win guys over?
ReplyDeleteI've sat in countless priesthood meetings where us guys are beaten into beta-male, nice guy submission until that's all we become. Nice guys... Nice guys who don't know how to attract women with anything else but our niceness. Articles and mentalities like this only contribute to the problem and do not help. Women don't want a nice guy. It's manipulative and your very own feminine intuition knows it. It's the very point of your article.
Women want a man who pursues his own path regardless of what anyone else says. The kind of man you want is not going to pay attention to something like this. It might only anger him. It certainly won't draw him to you. The kind of man that will pay any attention to this is the kind of man who will pay too much attention to what other people think. A people pleaser.
Focus on being your best self and try to attract the kind of man you want. Allow him to come to you. If you are trying to beat someone into submission that's what you will get...nice, submissive, and manipulative.
Forget whatever 'patterns' you're seeing because in truth, you have no idea what really happened in each of these scenarios. Maybe it's the women in Provo who are just incredibly insecure and a man can't help but lose attraction? That's what happened in my case. Do you think it's up to us to maintain the self esteem of every single woman in Provo? Might sound like a crazy explanation, but hey, if we're lumping entire groups of people into one box, why not consider all possible explanations.
I took a different girl out the other night, we kissed, and I am going to call her again. Why? She allowed me to come to her. She was a warm, and loving woman. I enjoy being around her. Surprisingly I'm not the 'scuz' that other girl felt necessary to call me. You probably won't agree with me, I just offer up my perspective in hopes that maybe it will help you. I wish you the best.
I have been happily married for many year now and all I have to say is...dating sucks!! It's trying to figure out if you will be compatible for eternity, which is stressful! And every single person in this life will go through terrible heartache at least once if not many times. It sounds like the author is going through one herself which is why it is so emotionally charged. But keep your head high and when you start liking someone again, don't get physical until you feel like you know the person and know he will respect you in the way you desire!!
ReplyDeleteI read through most of the comments here. I just thought I'd agree that dating totally sucks. I just graduated from BYU last month, by the way.
ReplyDelete@OP: I wish you never felt that you'd been taken advantage of, and it's a good thing for people to be made aware of. I hope that you do give more guys a chance (it appears that you will). I sincerely wish you the best of luck. I agree with the people who said that it's best to wait as long as possible before getting physical at all. I also sympathize with the men who are respectful of women and are still having no luck in dating.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I just want to emphasize that it is absolutely crucial that men and women (though it seems that problems more often occur with men) respect each other in every way, not just physical. Abuse of any kind is intolerable.
DeleteI have to agree with what you said. I am a strong believer that men need to respect women. The issue is that it is well known by everyone that is how it should be (especially in Utah County). So this means that the men who disrespect women have already been taught this, but choose to do it anyway. They are choosing to go against what they know to be right. And that is how it is. We can't make others choice the right, but we can. And I am surprised with how many good women fall for low-quality men. they undoubtedly deserve more. Women need to know there are good men out there they can find. But just because they are a honorable RM, the Elder's quorum president going to BYU, hold a temple recommend and tell their mom they love them at the end of a phone call, does not mean they are worthy of the young women. Even though it is said so much over and over again that these are not the measurements of a good man, I see so many women become comfortable around these "checklisted" men. It takes time to find out someone's true colors. And when women find themselves in a unhealthy relationship they can't rely on the guy "becoming good" they need to state how they feel. They need to say "no" and mean it. They need to learn how to decline physical affection and realize how serious it is when a man still persists and to get out of that situation. Women need to stick to their guns and not fall for when the guys says "if you truly loved me to would..." unquestionably when a man disrespects a woman it is %100 percent his fault. but we can't rely on them changing. people are who they are. And if women learned these skills, many abusive situations would be avoided.
ReplyDeleteGreat article. I appreciate it to hear a woman's bold perspective of how dating needs to improve. It's something I can definitely work on, how to be more emotionally honest in relationships and at the same time use time with others to build them up.
ReplyDeleteThe best part is you went through and deleted all the comments you didn't like. How much self-awareness can one person lack? You think the whole world needs to listen to your 20 something year old know nothing shit for brains and complete lack of wisdom and you block out anyone who asks you to return the favor? Thanks for representing your awful ideology so symbolically. Next time you get rejected maybe pull another lever besides flipping the world upside down to save your precious ego, and maybe have better judgment or at least better ownership over how your dating life goes.
ReplyDeleteI know this isn't as important as the things you talked about, but I don't quite agree with the chivalry open doors and pull out seats part. To some men-perhaps a minority-this is weird because it's not equal. And this same idea of equality that makes some chivalry seem weird is the same idea that causes them to respect women-and other men-because they're all equal to themselves. (I'm not accusing you of being against equality-plenty of people who like equality still like these traditions because they're trivial enough and they use it as a way to raise the bar for men's respect so they have the respect that logically they should have-but I consider this a way of motivating respect using societal pressure instead of one's mind-which I prefer-and which works more effectively to some people who respond well to logic and persuasion but not well to force such as societal pressure)
ReplyDeleteHi Jessica,
ReplyDeleteI just wants to say thank you for writing so eloquently what I have been feeling and thinking for so long. I know a lot of
People we not like this article and they will not see the point. But thank you so much! I wish that both men and women could look at this and even if they haven't experienced this understand that someone experienced this even if they don't understand or agree it happened. So again thank you keep sharing!
Hello Jessica, I appreciate your post about respectful dating. While it's addressed to "men", I believe it applies just as well and equally to women.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to mention that I think that some of the defensive and negative comments are due to a misunderstanding of who your audience is. If you addressed your post to "Men who don't follow their standards" or some other specific title, as well as re-wording some of the wide-sweeping statements, it would probably go a long way to easing the tension and would facilitate more understanding, sympathy, and concern. The title may not be as "catchy" or creative, but it's more important that the message be set up for a better reception.
Also, at times the post was a bit vague which adds to the misunderstanding.
Cheers!
Ya know, I agree with a lot of what was said. At the same time, I tried to see how that may apply to me while reading. I'm an rm of about 3 months, just started here at BYU. It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that sometimes when I just want to be friends with a girl, she considers that as me being interested. I don't go for the makeout sessions or things like that, I just enjoy their company and like being their friend, but it seems to me that sometimes it really is impossible for both sides to be "just friends". I do not excuse the behavior of young men who manipulate young women, but I also put it out there that sometimes, perhaps, there are young men who are just interested in being friends (without benefits, as they say, or in other words, no makeout necessary), and that the reason they disappear is they had never wanted a long term relationship other than that - of being friends, and the girl may have read into it wrong. Do all relationships with the opposite sex have to have the potential ending of man and wife, or is there that semistable area of just being friends? Now like I said, I'm kinda new at all of this, so I may be rather naive in some aspects. I'd like to hear what others think on this as well.
ReplyDeleteI think that men and women can be friends; some of my friends are guys, but I also think that there are many LDS people who don't believe they can be friends without feelings developing.
DeleteMy take away. Jerks stop being Jerks.
ReplyDeleteBYU is a great educational institution.
So what is the # of BYU marriage resulting?
What is the divorce rate resulting.
Is there satisfaction with the results? If not what needs to change?
What are leaders of the BYU institution doing about it?
Why are the benefits of a BYU education and experience to you?
From BYU Idaho in the 80's the word on the street was that RM's were favored in dating. Ration of girls to boys was uneven. So it was weird.
Personally, I avoided BYU Provo after tours there for my personal conflict of conscience in the aggravating pride and stigma of that campus, though two sibling found education and marriage there.
Prior to mission, I was a friend. I went to campus dances with a diverse group. Every date I asked out, did not reciprocate interest. After my mission, I was back to BYU, Idaho (Ricks) and I could not take it. The expectations from even 18 year old recent high school grad girls was off the charts. Further the RM's had free takings, by the stories of miraculous mission events. The pressure to get the cream of the crop was every where. The idea that the best ones were going fast and being left behind was insidious.
For me this was completely unhealthy and after one semester I moved to Salt Lake. But just the culture of post mission dating did not stop. Even in a single ward area, not even in a single ward, I was targeted. I fell for it hard. The first person to like me, sent me into the only pattern I was taught, engagement. I seriously did not even date. I never had a skill to date, even though I was cotillion trained and dance certified. One physical moment with an RM sister and I sucked in. 9 years later, my entire soul was spent. I was a stake mission leader, a youth leader and working in an ethnic ward. I worked to provide and got my degree only to find out that I was tooled for 9 years so that someone else could ride me to their dream. I was the nice guy, but I did not know how to find the nice girl. I forgave every piece of garbage from her experimentation days at BYU Hawaii, because that is love to forgive and move forward.
I had no way to know that supporting this RM sister to get 3 degrees would leave me unqualified for her and she found another man, renounced the prophet, and over years systematically burned the relationship with my daughters.
Results do matter. One can be upset what is happening around you or what is being said, but one better be upset about what happens to you. And one better get some skills before throwing your future into the deepest and longest lasting risk of your entire life. No matter what your inspiration, your dreams, one better have a safe environment and you are lucky if that is the checking post of your family and friends, which I did not have a good trust for, in my case.
It would be better said that BYU is a great institution, near the great Rocky Mountains, in driving distance of the best outdoor recreation and skiing and beauty, than to acclaim it as a great institution to seek marriage. If the results are such, then there better be people that make it to be so, otherwise move onto the real purpose of BYU, the support by the church and the Board and donors. Get a good education and make a difference in the world. Don't waste your heart or hurt people on the way and prove it by being good and getting better with your mistakes.
I can say that I have, on more than one occasion, felt the same way as you described in the beginning of the post. Unfortunately as I read further, I couldn't help but feel that there was some serious issues in how you addressed the problems you describe, primarily in how you took many many scriptural references out of context to condemn men, when that isn't their actual purpose. Ultimately I agree, and you absolutely have the right to vent your frustrations, my main criticism, I guess you could say, is the removal of context of some of the scriptures you have decided to use. Men and women are equal, but we are so different at the same time, those are things we have to take into account as well when dating.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate you didn't group all us guys together. I'm sorry you aren't having the best experience with the boys at BYU. Reading through this I could feel a lot of pain and confusion as to why things are like this, and why the young men of the church aren't doing as they are supposed to. I also feel you might be different... there are girls I know that being an RM is enough for them. I served in Nebraska for a mission and I know the kind of guys you're talking about. I hope you didn't date any of the ones I'm thinking of.
ReplyDeleteI would like to offer another side of the argument. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not excusing them by any means. I just know its impossible to find a solution if you don't know the root of the problem, and as good as it feels to vent... it really doesn't do much. Trust me.
During my time as a missionary, our mission president left us with a commitment to be married within a year of returning home. I think some interpreted that as "get married as soon as you can". I know one that took it upon himself to spread that the mission president cut the time in half, and wanted us to get married within half a year. I'm not sure why they thought it was a good idea to get married as soon as possible instead of putting in the time and effort it takes to form a healthy relationship, but this could be part of it.
Another part (and i think the biggest part) is the culture that exists in Utah. The norm is to go on a mission (foreign missions for bonus points), then go to BYU where we find the love of our lives in 3 months and build a family. It may not be openly said, but when I got home I could feel people wanting to get me to go to a YSA ward and get out of my home ward. Some people tend to look down on us if we return early. The same applies if we don't get married quickly. People keep asking if I've been going on dates or not.
Another thing to think about is the stereotypical YSA address from the general authorities. They stress for us to get married (as they should) quite often.
Yet another reason is the law of chastity. People can argue with this all they want, but I've heard it out of the mouths of some elders that they can't wait to get married so they can have sex. It's much easier in some peoples minds to keep the law of chastity by satisfying the urges with a wife than to commit to self control and develop that attribute to wait for the right person.
Want to know why some guys are this way? Because we live in a fallen world. Thought Utah would be different? I did too. Thought RMs were good men? Some are, but the mission has turned into a rite of passage for a lot of people and it has lost its sacredness. That is where your trouble's root is. From what I see, quite a few men and women do things in the gospel simply because they are told to and they don't understand why God wants us to do what he has told us to do. I hear in Sunday school lessons that people don't know what the spirit feels like for sure. That is troubling to say the least.
A. You're discribing narcissists
ReplyDeleteB. If they can bring themselves to read this they will only twist it around and vilify you
C. This has always been a problem and the girls saying no as you describe is our only hope. There is no going back.
Rock on
So glad I dated as an adult, not at BYU, and am married. These children today are unbelievable.
ReplyDeleteThe real problem is the church is a patriarchy. Even if men open doors for you and treat you like a freaking princess your whole life you will still be considered less than. Women in the church are so lovely, so needed, so elevated, yet not called upon to make any decisions, bless our families, or even speak in general conference (except for the, what was it, ONE female this year?). Until the church starts actually valuing women as people and not just pretty little flowers you'll always feel this way. Take a look at the women's session of conference, always ends with a man. Does the priesthood session end with a female talk? No it does not. And that sums up the LDS church and how they view women. As something to be presided over. Anyone reading this: You can find greater happiness and fulfillment OUTSIDE of the churches walls. The world has so much for you and you can do so much more for others and yourself without the limits this patriarchy puts on you. Don't be afraid to seek the truth, it is liberating and beautiful!!! You have one life, make the most of it! Leave the church!!!
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but God has governed his people in a patriarchal manner since the Fall. Man and woman have had different god-given responsibilities since that time as well. That fact doesn't mean that women are not valued in the church or that they are not listened to. Their voice is heard in councils at the ward and general level. They are heard by children, youth, and adults alike. They are valiant and strong. Indeed, final decisions are made by male leaders of the church in accordance with the Spirit after having received the council of others female and male alike. This does not make the men more valuable nor important.
DeleteMaybe one of the reasons people don't like the patriarchal leadership of the church is because they view church leadership in the same way they view leadership in the world. Leadership positions in the world represent power, influence, control, etc. People beneath those positions are not valued as much. The leadership in the church, however, is in stark contrast to this. Leadership in the church is about service not status. The Lord addressed this very topic of leadership in the New Testament (Mark 10:42-45):
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Don't you see? Holding a position in the church does not mean you are more valuable than another. It is but another form of service. One is not more important than the other. The only exception I can think of is the calling of a mother. The prophets and apostles have made it clear that there is no higher calling. Notice how it is reserved for women. Men are not to be mothers. Is God implying that men are less important than women because He doesn't let them give birth? Of course not! He's just given men different responsibilities.
Another key difference between leadership in the world and leadership in the church is that leadership in the church is not run by democracy; rather, by revelation. Decisions are made by councils which seek God's will. It isn't the will of a man nor the will of a woman. The interest of men is not served more than the interest of women. It is the interest of God with which we are concerned.
DeleteHeavenly Father reveals truth in general conference. If you believe that the speakers in general conference are chosen prayerfully, then it shouldn't matter who happens to be the one speaking because no matter who it is, the words are actually coming from God. If that is the case, should it matter to us whether God speaks his will through a man rather than a woman? No. In either case they are nothing but a mouth-piece. You may ask, "then why doesn't God speak through more women if it doesn't matter?" Well I don't know, why don't you ask Him?
And now to wrap this up. Your conclusion that women are not truly valued in the LDS church is based on the premise that value is determined by leadership positions and speaking opportunities. It has been shown that value is not found in holding a position nor in speaking, but in serving God and his children in whatever capacity He sees fit.
Frankly, the statements you have made about women here are degrading and hugely overlook the great service and contributions they make to the church. I especially can't believe your comment that women are not called upon to bless families! Those who have been making these arguments are the ones who are devaluing our wonderful women.
Further, the topic of whether the church is true is beyond the discussion of this blog post. If you don't believe the church is true because of the supposed problems you have stated, then please deeply think about what I have shared, search the scriptures, and pray. Otherwise, I think the topic of the truthfulness of the church is beyond the scope of this discussion. Though I am curious, if you no longer believe, why are you still interested in viewing General Conference and talking about the church?
As a final thought, I have a challenge for you. If you want more womens' voices to be heard and valued, why don't you contibute to that by using your own voice to share faith and inspiration? Don't use it to tear those things down. The Gospel of Jesus Christ and His church do not restrict. They guide and free the righteous from the chains of the adversary. Chains which truly bind and restrict.
If you would like to discuss the truthfulness of the church, I'd be happy to oblige. Email me at darman12@gmail.com.
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ReplyDeleteJust as a point of reference, Christ's church had male Apostles and male 70. I don't think its a matter of who's above who, its just a matter of different responsibilities. Men and Women can still be equal while being different. I mean, we're different sexes with different bodies and hormones. We can never be exactly equal without drastic surgery. But we can treat each other as equals. That means mutual respect and honor. I, for one, do not consider a homemaker as any lesser than a CEO. They're just different. Is a nurse better than a schoolteacher? I don't think so. They're just different.
Just an excuse to justify keeping women out of the decision making process that affects every member. And like I said, you don't see women speaking at priesthood sessions. That means what they have to say is less valuable and that what men say is more valuable. Biology aside that is not equality and it is not respect.
ReplyDeleteI know this dating world that you're writing about. I know and love and have been hurt by these guys. This post is fantastically bold and rings with so much truth.
ReplyDeleteIn a second I want to comment about what you say about men, but my self-improvement-obsessed side (I think a lot of mormons have this side to them) has been troubled into a lot of thinking because of your post. (Time to write some SMART goals ;))
You helped me understand that I wish that I had more respect for myself. I love the unapologetic way that you say that women should be expecting respect. We should. We should be setting boundaries and not even imagine trusting someone who disregards them. We should not be afraid to hurt someone else's pride to protect our own virtue or dignity. We should speak clearly about what we do and do not feel comfortable with, and steer clear of the guys who will not listen. This isn't easy to do, especially when you throw attachment and insecurity and desire into the mix. So how are we supposed to muster enough boldness and conviction to continue expecting respect when our experiences have informed us that a respectful relationship is apparently both disappointing and incredibly strenuous for the guys we date?
We can expect respect. We should always do so, in fact.
We are daughters of God. You said it. I love it. I want to relearn it and lift my expectations for myself and those around me. I want to live up to what it means and let the Savior fill me with charity and courage--attributes that actually compliment each other. There's nothing un-loving about boundaries, and there's nothing unloving about enforcing them.
Now, I feel like this could feel discouraging for someone who has newly (or maybe not-so-newly) identified himself as among these disrespecters of women. There are many priesthood holders that need to make major changes in the way that they treat the women they date--and I sincerely hope that this was a wake up call for some of them.
ReplyDeleteI especially liked the questions that are cited that are good for reflection to determine your motivations. Self-examination tools are necessary when I’m trying to determine whether to change myself. I think that when I figure out that my behavior has been wrong, I’m prone to a few different roads. *over-simplification alert, I know*
I can be defensive and deny my wrongdoing, denounce them all, hate on this post, and never change.
Or I can realize it and feel sick to my stomach, embarrassed, wondering why any one released me into humanity, feeling totally hopeless about making amends for the past, and after resolving to change, ending up feeling hopeless about ever having a healthier dating life and, well, not changing despite all of the discomfort this post caused me.
OR I can feel sorrow for the those I've hurt and my ill-intentions, apologize to them and realize that I have an amazing potential to be a blessing in the lives of those I date, strive to be closer to Christ, and let his pure, behavior-altering love into my life.
Only God can help us truly repent, but I really believe he can. Let’s insert hope into our indignation at the men who have treated us poorly.
These guys will never be able to repair the damage they've caused. Yeah, ouch. But there's someone who can repair it--and it's the Savior.
So, guy reading this post, yeah, it's been terrible. Yeah, it's been terrible to feel undervalued and used. I want you to understand that it's been terrible. I don't want you to understand that so that you can feel terrible, too (well, tbh, sometimes I might feel vindictive, but not as a rule). I want you to understand that because you can be a kind, powerful priesthood holder, and I saw that in you—probably all the women you've dated saw that in you. We'll be fine, we have a Healer to look after us. But did you know that you could be an apprentice healer with him? Did you know that He can fill you with so much love that respect isn’t too hard to give? He can, and you've got this, guys. Figure it out, please, because Jessica's right: we want you to be husbands, teammates in Christ.
You can be that date who would truly be a wonderful father for my future kids. That’s who you’re meant to be. It's rough to really realize that your intentions have been off the mark, but it's okay because you have someone always poised at the ready to change your heart when you invite Him to. All of us need changes of heart. Thanks for listening to our pain. Become a healer--it’s in your nature as a son of God.
All of my comments have been deleted. I suppose your "progressive" ideas don't include free speech. Here's an easy solution. DON'T KISS ANY GUYS. That will solve your problem. Or wait till you've been on 20 dates. If you really think it's the guys problem and not yours, this would solve everything. You might find though, the problem has much more to do with you.
ReplyDeleteThank you for this post!!! I have experienced similar situations with boys, and it is really hard and very frustrating. I am so grateful you see this in it's true light; and it just reaffirms so many of the thoughts I already had! I cannot thank you enough.
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